Posts by Rev BII

23

Dubs Would be Totally Lost.........

by Farkel in

the topic of this thread is mostly directed towards jehovah's witnesses who still have some ability to think.

this topic is important to those jws who may have some doubts about their religion, no matter how small they might be.. i'm going to make perhaps, a rather startling assertion and instead of presenting all of my arguments for it, will invite others to contribute their own arguments.

if a person was to ask a number of jehovah's witnesses what was the single most important part of their religion, a variety of answers would be given, and without question, all of them would be wrong.. to put it another way, if one had the power to take away just one thing from the watchtower religion that would render it impotent and foundering like a beached whale, what would that one thing be?.

Rev BII

Of cause the JW litterature is essential to them because they would never reach their conclusions without them. Russell was an untaught man that attempted to make the Bible say want he wanted it to do and taking verses out of their context. The stumbling question to JWs and most other groups is this: do you preach the Gospel of the apostles? If not, you preach another gospel and the Bible warns against such.

49

Is There a HELL ??

by 67mustang in

according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".

i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".

wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.

Rev BII

Hi Bleep

"Then Jesus Christ will rule as King over this earth for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20:6) He will gradually take sin away from our minds and bodies. We will become perfect humans just as Adam and Eve were before they sinned. Then there will be no more sickness, old age, and death. Sick people will be cured, and old persons will become young again.-Job 33:25; Isaiah 33:24; Revelation 21:3, 4."

- The promises are to those that have citizenship in Israel, without being buried with Christ, you are without hope (Rom. 6:8, Eph. 2:12).

"During Jesus' Thousand Year Reign, faithful humans will work to turn the whole earth into a paradise. (Luke 23:43) Also, millions of dead ones will be resurrected to human life on the earth. (Acts 24:15) If they do what God requires of them, they will continue to live on earth forever. If not, they will be destroyed forever.-John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20:11-15."

- Those verses are not saying that. Luke 23:43 speaks of the restored earth, which will be finally restored after the 1.000 years. The other verses say that people will come out of the graves to either life/immortality or condemnation. When Christ returns, the mortal population will be those not called to judgement. These will have children in the Kingdom, while those counted worthy to the Kingdom and the reign when Christ returns will not (Luke 20:35-36). That way the earth will be filled.

"God's original purpose for the earth will thus succeed. Would you like to share in these future blessings? If so, you need to keep learning about Jehovah and obeying his requirements. Attending meetings at the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses will help you to do so.-Isaiah 11:9; Hebrews 10:24, 25."

- I have yet to see any passages in the Bible telling of the above Gospel. It's not there in the apostles preaching. Look here:

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

That message is clear. Repent now and receive the Kingdom or be destroyed. The thing is, one you get down in the grave with Jesus, you don't come up to life.

Consider..

God Bless

39

This is why the Demons can't be human.

by Bleep in

only god has the power to create things.

but he can have help with the design.that is why they can only be mutants or huge giants when having relations with humans.

the demons have the power to go into the body.

Rev BII

How do you manage to to interpret 'I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.' (Luke 10:18) as speak as a literal fall? Obvious it's figurative for the success the apostles have through the name of Jesus in defeating satan's world.

If "satan" was thrown down in the times of Adam, what was he doing up in Heaven as popular teachings says in Job 1:6?

Are you linking this to Rev. 12? Well the visions in Revelations deal with issues coming to pass in the future from when it's written (Rev. 4:1)

Those that understand satan as a fallen angel comes into a number of problems, not least with the OT.

God Bless

Edited by - Rev BII on 20 July 2002 5:32:54

49

Is There a HELL ??

by 67mustang in

according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".

i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".

wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.

Rev BII

Bleep,

"Jesus gave us life again by cleansing us of all sins after we die. The wages of sin is death. We first must die or live long enough to pass threw to the new system. At that time we are made perfect since Christ will rule on earth as he rules now in heaven since 1914. We have one chance (one thousand years) to prove we are good. If someone is on the side of Satan when he is let loose then he will have the second death. If you have any questions Rev Bill, I will try to the best of my ability to help clear some things up or get you started."

- Well Bleep you could start by telling me where I find the passage in the Bible that tells this story of a thousand years long chance. Not that it doesnt have its appealing sides, but we have to stick to the Bible. On the contrary Matt. 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, 2 Kor. 5:10 and Heb. 9:27 all testifies to the clear message that all accountable are judged for their deeds when Christ returns and after this given either immortality or 2nd death. Im also curious where the Bible tells us Jesus reigns up in heaven since 1914.

:)

Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 20:55:51

39

This is why the Demons can't be human.

by Bleep in

only god has the power to create things.

but he can have help with the design.that is why they can only be mutants or huge giants when having relations with humans.

the demons have the power to go into the body.

Rev BII

Saint satan,

Excellent point again. Yes, this was just an old tale those men told so Quotes is wrong there.

Nah, these Nephilim were utterly human. Job refers to the lads here:

Job 22: 15 Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? 16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

It started when the sons of God mingled with the ungodly daughters of men.

:)

Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 18:18:41

49

Is There a HELL ??

by 67mustang in

according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".

i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".

wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.

Rev BII

I don't think the Bible teaches of any fiery hell, nor did the pre - hellenistic Jews and early Christians, although I believe in punishment and totally reject the JW ideas about resurrection of people to a new chance. Consider:

Rev. 14: 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

How eternal? As eternal as the Lamb and the angels will be watching. Note this doesn't take place down in the underworld either.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here we even get the interpretation of the lake of fire - 2nd death. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Can you put death and hades into a physical place? No, symbols go down into symbols, not literal places.

Along with that, immortality is a gift (2 Tim. 1:10). The Bible refers to the death as a sleep of nonexistence in the dust in lots of verses, forinstance:

Genesis 3: 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Isaiah 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

Isaiah 26:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Consider also the OT use of "hell fire":

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORDS vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Read that passage carefully. By modern day definitions it contains a major contradiction. A land is burning forever, smoke goes up forever etc, yet owls and ravens, thorns shall grow and dragons and wild beasts shall live in it etc.

The answer to all this is that the Biblical hellfire is eternal destruction, doubtlessly dragging on non Biblical imagination to make people relate better to it perhaps. I believe the Bible require careful dedicated study and once you get into it, you will see that it sometimes uses quit a few pagan imaginations to make its points come across, yet you are not left with doubt about what the truth is.

God Bless

Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 18:5:53

Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 18:7:17

39

This is why the Demons can't be human.

by Bleep in

only god has the power to create things.

but he can have help with the design.that is why they can only be mutants or huge giants when having relations with humans.

the demons have the power to go into the body.

Rev BII

My Strongs gives the possible renderings:
fellar
bully
tyrant

Surely they were fellars, because they led people away from God being bad company. But, the chapter aswell as the rest of the Old Testament is utterly silent about this being fallen angels (how were "fallen angels" to have children with women anyway) on the contrary the chapter testifies to the fact that these villains were utterly human.

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

God Bless

39

This is why the Demons can't be human.

by Bleep in

only god has the power to create things.

but he can have help with the design.that is why they can only be mutants or huge giants when having relations with humans.

the demons have the power to go into the body.

Rev BII

Good points from SaintSatan.

Nephilim simply means bully. They were a violent gang beating up and killing people. If you take a look at Genesis 6 you will not find a hint of any fallen angels. This is accepted by most today and the WT simply adhere to an anacronism, an old Jewish tradition from the "Book of Enoch". Men are called sons of God in may Bible verses (Deut. 14:1 (R.S.V.); Hos. 1:10; Lk. 3:38; Jn 1:12; 1 Jn. 3:1).

God Bless

24

The Earliest Christians

by Adonai438 in

i am posting quotes from the writtings of the earliest christians to share whether or not the jw statement of.

the trinity not existing until the council of nicea is accurate or not.

so these quotes are relevant to the trinity.

Rev BII

Adonai,

No, Christendom do not believe the OT is as true as the NT. It has become trend to say so but that doesn't change the fact.

That the Holy Spirit fills people, which the beings God and Jesus doesn't do, shows us that it's not a person, it's a spirit. Just logic. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned together with Jesus except for the baptism formula where it of cause is because, because God grants his spirit to the faithful.

As for Satan in the OT, he's only mentioned in a few verses in Job and Zecheriah. Satan isn't mentioned in Genesis 3 or 6. But people read that in. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 refer to men. That's just a matter of reading the whole chapter.

God Bless

24

The Earliest Christians

by Adonai438 in

i am posting quotes from the writtings of the earliest christians to share whether or not the jw statement of.

the trinity not existing until the council of nicea is accurate or not.

so these quotes are relevant to the trinity.

Rev BII

Adonai,

The Holy Spirit is a spirit. A spirit is not a being, but a force, negative or positive. This one is God's Spirit. The NT uses a different kind of wording than the OT. The OT clearly shows that it's God's Spirit. It can fill people etc. My sect/denomination (the Christadelphians) view unlike most other in the world, the OT as just as important and true as the NT.

The NT also seem to backup that Satan and his demons (the illnesses in the Gospels, compare to Isa 53) exists as beings while the OT doesn't back that up (nor do orthodox Jews believe that), let alone the nature of sin and God counting men accountable for sin.

But of cause the Holy Spirit carry out God's will and therefore it's 'him'. It's not a matter of quoting NT verses, it's a matter of common sense and interpretation that keep track with the whole Word. That's why the apostolic letters never list the trinity in their thanks to the deity.

God Bless

Btw, I look forward to some good email correspondance.